RE: JCSP, CSP Networking, and other some other points

[Bob Gustafson <bobgus@xxxxxxx>]

To do anything with a programming language, there needs to be a pot of
code, a forum/mail list, installed in a linux distribution, etc.

Once there is a 'presence' on the web, then folks will be willing to
commit time and effort - and things can snowball.

These days there is a lot of room for both opensource and copyrighted
books on programming subjects. But it takes one before the other.

Perhaps a sourceforge project would be a good start.

Bob G

On Tue, 2009-02-24 at 09:51 -0600, Andrzej Lewandowski wrote:
> Yes, you enjoyed, no question. I enjoyed, too. But I can guarantee, no Java
> programmer would even TOUCH these books.
> 
> If Academia thinks that this is The Solution to make CSP popular, then,
> sorry, you The Academia is wrong.
> 
> A.L.
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Bob Gustafson [mailto:bobgus@xxxxxxx] 
> Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2009 9:42 AM
> To: Andrzej Lewandowski
> Cc: occam-com@xxxxxxxxxx
> Subject: RE: JCSP, CSP Networking, and other some other points
> 
> I rather enjoyed reading Geraint Jones's two books on Occam. The latest,
> with Michael Goldsmith - "Programming In Occam 2 (2nd Edition)
> (Paperback)" is available on Amazon. (1 is available new for $114.07 and
> several used from $7.04 - The free markets can be curious.)
> 
> 
> On Tue, 2009-02-24 at 08:44 -0600, Andrzej Lewandowski wrote:
> > ... however, The World will not come and ask us for solution. Without
> active
> > promotion, available tools (especially for debugging), advertizing,
> > marketing and commercialization, without writing in popular and business
> > journals, without making noise, CSP will stay where it is now: topic of
> > obscure scientific conferences that nobody knows about.
> > 
> > There are about 10 books "by programmers for programmers" about thread
> > programming in Java. All books about CSP I know require Ph.D.+ and have
> very
> > little impact on programming practice. WHY NO POPULAR BOOKS?... Does
> anybody
> > is expecting that average Java programmer will read (and understand)
> Hoare's
> > book? Or Roscoe's, or Schneider's? How average Java programmer could learn
> > that CSP and JCSP DO EXIST?... And how they could be convinced that JCSP
> is
> > better than Java thread library?
> > 
> > A.L.
> > 
> > P.S. I will not write such a book :) I am currently in the business of
> > Constraint Logic Programming, and I am trying to write a book about CLP
> for
> > practitioners.... Sorry...
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Mailing_List_Robot [mailto:sympa@xxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Bob
> > Gustafson
> > Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2009 8:03 AM
> > To: occam-com@xxxxxxxxxx
> > Subject: RE: JCSP, CSP Networking, and other some other points
> > 
> > I agree. Occam is a 'solution in waiting' for multi-core processors. A
> > few of you University Lecturers could give out releases to the trade
> > press about Occam, JCSP, CSP..  (or is Occam a trademark ??)
> > 
> > (I am getting duplicate emails for all recent posts to this list - is
> > anyone else?)
> > 
> > Bob G
> > 
> > On Tue, 2009-02-24 at 07:54 -0600, Andrzej Lewandowski wrote:
> > > Good. JCSP as software product is really solid (I am talking about RC
> 1.0
> > > that I was using in commercial application).
> > > 
> > > By the way, why CSP community is silent when it regards programming
> > > multicore processors? There is a lot of nonsense being published
> recently
> > > regarding this topic, various "thread and parallel" amateurs trying to
> > find
> > > "silver bullets" that in most cases look like "philosophical stone".
> Even
> > > Wall Street Journal and New York Times write how hard is programming
> > > multicore processors.
> > > 
> > > In the meantime, CSP community is sitting in Ivory Tower. Isn't CSP,
> JCSP
> > > and such good tools for multicore, and will multicore be the next
> > > missing/ignored opportunity for CSP community?
> > > 
> > > A.L. 
> > > 
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Mailing_List_Robot [mailto:sympa@xxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
> Chalmers,
> > > Kevin
> > > Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2009 7:26 AM
> > > To: Andrzej Lewandowski; java-threads@xxxxxxxxxx; occam-com@xxxxxxxxxx
> > > Subject: RE: JCSP, CSP Networking, and other some other points
> > > 
> > > Nothing within the core underlying functionality will change (unless
> Peter
> > > adds anything).  We are really talking externally.  For example, typed
> > > channels shouldn't be a problem and would utilise the existing channels
> > > underneath.  Library wise, we can consider support for Swing (AWT is
> old),
> > > etc.  Don't think of this as a modification exercise, more an extension.
> > > 
> > > Kevin Chalmers,
> > > Lecturer,
> > > School of Computing,
> > > Edinburgh Napier University,
> > > Merchiston Campus,
> > > Edinburgh, EH10 5DT
> > > 
> > > t: +44 (0)131 455 2484
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Andrzej Lewandowski [mailto:lewando@xxxxxxxxxxxxx]
> > > > Sent: 24 February 2009 12:38
> > > > To: Chalmers, Kevin; java-threads@xxxxxxxxxx; occam-com@xxxxxxxxxx
> > > > Subject: RE: JCSP, CSP Networking, and other some other points
> > > > 
> > > > " I have had a couple of emails recently asking about progress with
> > > > JCSP and
> > > > with one thing or another we haven't had much time to work on updating
> > > > the
> > > > core JCSP package.."
> > > > 
> > > > DON'T FIX IT IF IS NOT BROKEN. First of all.
> > > > 
> > > > A.L.
> > > > 
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Mailing_List_Robot [mailto:sympa@xxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of
> > > > Chalmers,
> > > > Kevin
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2009 4:04 AM
> > > > To: java-threads@xxxxxxxxxx; occam-com@xxxxxxxxxx
> > > > Subject: JCSP, CSP Networking, and other some other points
> > > > 
> > > > All,
> > > > 
> > > > This email is going to cover a few different points so bear with me a
> > > > little
> > > > :)
> > > > 
> > > > First of all JCSP.  I have had a couple of emails recently asking
> about
> > > > progress with JCSP and with one thing or another we haven't had much
> > > > time to
> > > > work on updating the core JCSP package.  We have discussed
> > > > possibilities of
> > > > taking JCSP to a Java 1.5/6 version, and utilising various parts of
> the
> > > > Java
> > > > API to simplify / increase performance, but I don't think any concrete
> > > > decisions were made.  So my first question is really about where we
> > > > should
> > > > be taking the core JCSP package?  What sort of functionality are
> people
> > > > looking for that we don't yet support?  I am, finally, going to try
> and
> > > > put
> > > > various JCSP versions / packages up on the repository, including an
> > > > updated
> > > > JCSP Micro Edition and Jon's JCSP Robot Edition.  Possibly Groovy, but
> > > > that's a discussion point I feel, as it is not really Java as such.
> > > > 
> > > > Secondly, and probably most important from my point of view, is CSP
> > > > Networking (for want of a better term).  As some of you may know, I
> > > > have
> > > > been working on a generalised protocol and architecture for JCSP,
> which
> > > > we
> > > > can re-implement on the various CSP platforms/frameworks (occam,
> > > > C++CSP,
> > > > PyCSP, etc.), and thereby gain some form of inter-framework
> > > > communication.
> > > > We are still very much in an early stage, so this is sort of general
> > > > call
> > > > out to interested parties who would like to either contribute some
> > > > insight,
> > > > or, even better, help take things forward.  I am currently working
> with
> > > > John
> > > > Markus in Tromso (when I can) to try and get PyCSP and JCSP to
> > > > interact.  So
> > > > far I have JCSP sending strings to Python, and Python acknowledging
> and
> > > > sending back a reply, so we are making some progress.  At a quick
> > > > count, we
> > > > have seven frameworks probably looking at having some network
> > > > functionality
> > > > (JCSP, PyCSP, occam, Transterpreter, C++CSP, Haskell CSP, CSO
> (Scala)),
> > > > and
> > > > it would be pretty good if we could get an Erlang version as well.  I
> > > > am
> > > > hoping to start a project with this, so as time goes on we can set up
> > > > the
> > > > various resources that we need.
> > > > 
> > > > Related to this request is a question on a C/C++ reference library for
> > > > the
> > > > protocol and architecture.  I am currently thinking about the best
> > > > method to
> > > > go about having a standard native library which each CSP framework can
> > > > essentially hook into, thus reducing the overall maintenance /
> > > > development
> > > > work.  To simplify the description of the architecture a little,
> > > > essentially
> > > > there are a series of queues (infinitely buffered channels) which
> > > > receive
> > > > messages for incoming network channels, and TX/RX processes to handle
> > > > network comms.  When it comes down to it, there is nothing that
> > > > essentially
> > > > requires CSP semantics within the architecture (there is no
> > > > synchronisation
> > > > between the TX/RX processes and the networked channels as the channels
> > > > are
> > > > infinitely buffered), and any shared state can happily be protected
> > > > within a
> > > > standard critical region.  So currently I am considering two different
> > > > approaches:
> > > > 
> > > > 1) Use C++CSP to develop the library, which requires C++CSP and Boost.
> > > > 2) Use Intel Thread Building Blocks.  Only requires one library.
> > > > 
> > > > The last time I talked to Neil, he was unsure if C++CSP was 100%
> > > > Windows
> > > > compatible, and also I would have to strip out the existing C++CSP
> > > > Networking functionality, meaning it wouldn't be an exact version.
> TBB
> > > > I'm
> > > > not as familiar with however, so if anyone knows any problems with the
> > > > library let me know.  If you have any insights into either it could be
> > > > useful also.
> > > > 
> > > > Cheers,
> > > > 
> > > > Kevin
> > > > 
> > > > Kevin Chalmers,
> > > > Lecturer,
> > > > School of Computing,
> > > > Edinburgh Napier University,
> > > > Merchiston Campus,
> > > > Edinburgh, EH10 5DT
> > > > 
> > > > t: +44 (0)131 455 2484
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
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> > > 
> > > Napier University is the best modern university in Scotland* and number
> > one
> > > in Scotland for graduate employability**
> > > (*Guardian University Guide 2009)
> > > (**HESA 2008)
> > > 
> > > This message is intended for the addressee(s) only and should not be
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